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Question
Posted by: Jimmy | 2007/03/19

1 Corinthiens 6 verse 9-10

".......homosexuals will not enter the Kingdom of God......."

Refer to our conversations......there it is ladies and gents......in black in white in the Bible.......so tell me do u think to be gay is still normal?

I rest my case......

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Our expert says:
Expert ImageGay, lesbian and bisexual expert

Dear Jimmy, you don't have a case to rest. Where in the bible does it state that Jesus was heterosexual? Your arrogance is deeply irritating so please go away and find yourself a Christian forum somewhere. You're being intrusive here.

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Our users say:
Posted by: reader | 2007/03/21

wise words and reponse Andy, thanks mate.

Reply to reader
Posted by: Andy | 2007/03/20

Here's my "small" 2c worth:

How can we place such an absolute interpretation on what Paul wrote to the Corinthians almost 2000 years ago? Can you fathom how far humanity has come spiritually since then (from burning people at the stake, villages pillaging and raping each other, etc. Look at the Dark Ages). The 180 degree shift in consciousness of South Africa over the past decade is testament to our growing awareness of what feels good, deep down inside us, where "God" resides within us. It's not about laws written by men - I say men because that's how it's always been, but this is changing tooļ. It's about what we feel when we stop judging each other, stop chasing what we think we want or need, mostly out of fear, and go deep inside to the place where fear does not exist - only love. For "God" is love -the love in each of us.

The laws written by Paul all those years ago were based on the fears of that age, just as our laws today are mostly based on fear. Many of those old laws don't apply anymore, this is clear (we¡¦ve got different ones based on different fears). The only words I believe that were truly spoken by Jesus were the following:

"All the commandments are replaced with the one I give you now; that you love one another as I have loved you."

Clearly, these words spoken by Jesus himself, and recorded on the Mount of Olives, conflict horribly with the words of gloom and doom written by so many other narrators in the bible, so whose "commands" do we follow?

I say follow the ones in your heart, the ones crafted by the love of "God" within you, the ones crafted not in fear, but in love.

Really, can we imagine that "God," the all powerful creator of everything, gives a flying poop if you get fu*ked up the arly and enjoy it?

(I use this shocking vocab for a good reason - it sounds terrible, but in fact, it's just a bunch of words that convey a concept. The concept exists whether I say the words or not. And guess who created the concept? It was the all powerful creator of everything, of course! I really don't want to go into this now, because it's off the point. Maybe in another discussion)

Why would God create a universe so rich and full of possibilities and then tell us that we can only investigate certain possibilities, but not others. It's kind of like putting a kid in a candy store and saying "Don't touch!" This whole judgment thing is a human concept; I have real difficulty ascribing it to the all powerful creator of everything. Like "God" has the need to judge us before deciding whether we will join his private club in the clouds - please, that concept reeks of a child's fairytale. Especially since "He" apparently already knows everything - a pretty pointless exercise for Mr. Almighty.

Further, I also have difficulty with the concept that "God" needs our obedience in the first place. Or our love, or anything at all from us. Come on, "He's" the main dude! Think about how absolutely mind-bogglingly big this universe is, and now think about "God" as "existing" beyond that (otherwise "She" would not have been able to create it - try creating a sculpture from inside the sculpture), and then maybe you have a slight feeling for just how big this "Guy" is. Our little thoughts and actions are on such a primitive scale that most of what we think and do probably doesn't register much ¡§out there.¡¨

What if "God" created this universe, with all its rich, colourful and exciting possibilities for us to play in - at our will and to our heart's content? What if, while playing, we have the opportunity to discover for ourselves what it means to be like "God," which in my books is the same as being like "Love." Love, in its fullest meaning, encapsulates everything that we treasure most. In love there is no fear, no resentment, and no judgment.

I have a strong feeling, somewhere deep inside (not a place I can access easily in the bustle of everyday life), that we are all moving to a state where there is no male and female, no laws and judgments - just "Love." The pettiness of our laws and rules limit us, they box us in and make us smaller. We do this to keep control, because we fear what might happen if we lose control. But the truth is that control is a myth ¡V we never had it and we never will. Everything is established by humans to ensure physical survival, yet this one thing we can never achieve ¡V we can be sure of only one thing in this life, we will not survive physically. How¡¦s that for an eye-opener; everything from laws to heaters in winter constitute a futile attempt by humanity to achieve the unachievable. Yet people still take all that shit seriously ¡V go figure.

If we really think about it, it becomes clear that "Love" and control are mutually exclusive concepts - they cannot exist together. That's because the need to control is born of fear, and "Love" and fear are mutually exclusive. Fear gives rise to everything that "Love" is not - anger, resentment, the need to take instead of give, etc...

Consider, as an example among many, the generally accepted construct of marriage. Its one of fear and control (the way most people do it anyway). It¡¦s all about ensuring the status quo, and ¡§God¡¨ forbid you are not married by 30, or decide to change your mind about the person you¡¦re married to, or about marriage in general! Yet in a state of ¡§normality¡¨ (how I hate that word!!) we are static; we don¡¦t change and grow as much while we resist the flow of life with rules and laws. That to me is hell; it¡¦s a place where life becomes mundane and meaningless.

Can we move beyond fear and towards "Love?" Jesus faced a gruesome death with "Love" as opposed to fear. That act is what made him famous, and that act is the ultimate message he left for us to ponder. All the other bullshit is religion - a tool used by politically minded opportunists to control the masses and get stinking rich.

I¡¦d like to send out a tribute to all those humans who have moved beyond their fear, taken the plunge and relished in their differences. Guys who discovered they loved guys (guys used here as a general term meaning male or female or otherwise) and decided, ¡§to hell with what the world thinks, I need to follow my heart here because to do otherwise would leave me false, shallow and empty.¡¨
I have a small inkling as to how incredibly courageous that stand is. To face parents, siblings, teachers, ¡K, and in the US, George Bush ƒº, knowing that they may turn their backs on you, or worse, yet still sticking to your truth regardless. That¡¦s the most unsafe thing I can imagine ¡V requiring substantial testes. I take my hat off to you all; you¡¦re a shining example of how life should be lived and I thank you for your courage because it shines a light on my life too.

With ¡§Love¡¨
Andy

Reply to Andy
Posted by: Brad | 2007/03/20

Better still try anal sex just once, you have nooooooo idea how good you'll feel, we know you want it Jimmy, we know you want it real bad and trust me it feels even better than you can imagine.

Reply to Brad
Posted by: Confused | 2007/03/19

He's doing it for attention. Just ignore him and he will piss off.

Listen jimmy, get a girlfriend of a boyfriend, or both. Since when do Christians judge?
;-)

Reply to Confused
Posted by: NatureFreak | 2007/03/19


..coming up with genuinely Christian responses ....

Arent Christians suppose to be led by the holy ghost?

Reply to NatureFreak
Posted by: Ferny | 2007/03/19

You know what, all i have to say to you Jimmy is the following : -

JUST PISS OFF !!!!

I can't even be bothered to try and reason with you bigoted, prejudiced, hypocritical homophobes.

Why don't you leave us alone, STAY OUT of our forum and go and do something useful like alleviate poverty and leave us all to live our lives. Not one of us is doing anything which will personally affect you.

SO TAKE A HIKE, preferably a long one in Outer Mongolia !!!

NO love and NO hugs - Ferny.

Reply to Ferny
Posted by: Tammy | 2007/03/19

Of course, what really throws the cat amond the pigeons is the possibility that Science might just be right. Horror of horrors - there might be a scientific and medical basis for sexual orienatation ... as the more thoughtful ones are already thinking about.

What do bigoted Christians do then?

Here's a very interesting article from the Washington Post (18 March)

The Problem, in A Fundamental Nutshell: 'Is Your Baby Gay?'

By Lynne Duke
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, March 18, 2007; Page D01

Pity the poor fetus. There's a lot coming its way. And now there's talk on a conservative evangelical blog of a hypothetical hormone patch that an expectant mother might wear to eradicate her fetus's natural gayness.

The patch, the biological determinism: It's all conjecture, for now. But it hit like a theological IED when it turned up earlier this month on the blog of the Rev. R. Albert Mohler Jr., one of the leading voices of the 16 million-strong Southern Baptist Convention. He blogged on these issues under the appropriately provocative headline: "Is Your Baby Gay? What if You Could Know? What if You Could Do Something About It?" In his postings, he raises the possibility of a biological basis for homosexuality and prods his flock to think about how it should respond.

At a time when homosexuality in the military has reemerged as a flash point, causing presidential candidates to deflect and dance gingerly around the topic, Mohler has taken up the debate about the origins of homosexuality in a way he ad mits has roiled many in the Christian right.

For seeming to contradict a basic tenet of anti-gay thinking -- that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, not a state of nature -- Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, was inundated with e-mails from readers who castigated him, he said on his blog Friday.

And for expressing his approval of a hypothetical prenatal intervention to change a baby's sexual orientation, he was verbally attacked by gay-rights advocates. Some of them likened him to the Nazi doctor Josef Mengele for seeming to advocate the manipulation of nature to "basically wipe out gay people," said Wayne R. Besen, founder of Truth Wins Out, a group that fights efforts to convert gays to heterosexuality.

To quiet the storm, Mohler's blog on Friday attempted to more fully explain his thinking, sparked by an article by Tyler Gray, entitled "Is Your Baby Gay?," in the March issue of Radar magazine.

"My purpose in writing my previous article was, in the main, to draw attention to a very real threat to human dignity that lurks as a possibility on our horizon, a possibility explicitly described in the Radar magazine article," Mohler wrote. "This is the possibility that, if a biological marker (real or not) is ever claimed to mark homosexuality in prenatal testing, widespread abortion of such babies might well follow," a prospect he denounced.

In an interview on Friday, Mohler said that Christian couples "should be open" to the prospect of changing the course of nature -- if a biological marker for homosexuality were to be found. He would not support gene therapy but might back other treatments, such as a hormonal patch.

"I think any Christian couple would want their child to be whole and healthy," he said. "Knowing that that child is going to be a sinner, we would not want to make their personal challenges more difficult if they could be less difficult."

On his blog, he said "Christians must be very careful not to claim that science can never prove a biological basis for sexual orientation. . . . The general trend of the research points to at least some biological factors behind sexual attraction, gender identity and sexual orientation."

Indeed, some scientific research suggests homosexuality may stem from biological influences including genetics and hormones. A 2006 study published in Proceedings of the National Academies of Science concluded that homosexuality in some men may be a result of an immune response in a mother's womb if she has previously given birth to one or more boys. Earlier studies revealed a genetic variation that might influence homosexuality.

On his blog, Mohler wrote that the search for a biological cause of the "disorder" could also lead to a "cure." In the interview, however, he distanced himself from the "therapeutic language of a 'cure' " and spoke instead of "salvation through Christ." Homosexual behavior is sinful, he said, whether based in nature or nurture.

The Rev. Rob Schenck, a pastor and member of the Evangelical Church Alliance, which he said is probably the most conservative of the evangelical groups, applauded Mohler for launching a dialogue.

But, he warned, "this is such a delicate and risky conversation to have for a number or reasons . . . We're going to have to be extremely prayerful and careful about making any decision to tinker with a child's genetic or biochemical construction. We may be awfully close to violating the sanctity of that child's life and their integrity as a person."

Mohler has "touched the third rail of the radical religious right's view of homosexuality," said the Rev. Bob Edgar, executive secretary of the National Council of Churches, which represents 35 denominations and 45 million congregants.

"What he said lends credence to the fact that it's God's creation. His brothers in faith would be more surprised than liberals with his comments." Ironically, Mohler's musings on these subjects were based on an article in an irreverent pop culture magazine. Gray, the article's author, said he was "not real happy" with the way Mohler used his writings.

"You can't just pick the parts that you like and say, 'I'm going to use this to say that I would be okay with a treatment that would eradicate homosexuality,' " said Gray, whose article raised the prospect for hypocrisy among conservatives and liberals faced with choices about the sexuality of their unborn children.

Mohler's missive has had a "chilling and frightening effect" on the homosexual community, said Harry Knox, director of the religion and faith program at the Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights advocacy group. "My word for [Christian conservatives] is they should be more focused on repentance for the sins they have committed against homosexuals than on manipulating the next generation of the unborn."

Besen said Mohler's musing are akin to calling for a "final solution" for gays.

"It's the first time I've ever used such a term, and having a family background that included the Holocaust I don't take that lightly," said Besen, author of "Anything but Straight: Unmasking the Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth."

"However . . . if you follow what he said there would be no gay people in the future."

Homosexuality is a "huge challenge" to Christianity, said Mohler, referring, in part, to the Rev. Ted Haggard, former president of the National Association of Evangelicals, who was forced to step down last November because of a gay sex scandal. And the Rev. Lonnie Latham, a member of the executive committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, was embroiled in a gay sex scandal but was found not guilty of having solicited sex from another man.

"In our churches and in our families there are people struggling with homosexuality and for a long time this was kind of hidden," Mohler said in the interview. "It is no longer hidden, and the fact is we've got to be coming up with genuinely Christian responses to Christians who are in this struggle."

Asked if he perhaps was moving ahead of the science on homosexuality's origins, Mohler said, "I don't think it's that far off. The battle for human dignity is already here."

Reply to Tammy
Posted by: GreenEyes | 2007/03/19

all together now... HERE WE GO AGAIN....

yawn yawn yawn!!!

Tammy, hell babe, i love the way you put people in their place!!
have a FANTAAASTIC day daahlings :)
xxxxxx

Reply to GreenEyes
Posted by: Tammy | 2007/03/19

The problem, Jimmy, is that far to many Christian bigots come here. and none of then stay around. They throw their toys out of the cot, ignore questions, and simply spout their own version of Christianity.

T

Reply to Tammy
Posted by: Nikki | 2007/03/19

Jimmy son, if you dont come here, you dont have to run

Hope you feel good about yourself now for slamming other people.

Perhaps you now have to guts to go face your real problems hey ......

HUGssss
xxxxxxxx
Nikki

Reply to Nikki
Posted by: Jimmy | 2007/03/19

Run from u faggots? Neva.....

Its your life not mine so dont let me worry about that no more.......

Have a nice day peeps........lol.....

Reply to Jimmy
Posted by: Nikki | 2007/03/19

LOL, thanks Tammy for shutting one more fool up.

Better run Jimmy, the church bell is ringing.

Oh dont forget your Bible and please remove that copy of the Hustler you have been hiding inside it.

Shame on you son, but hey, I will give you a big kiss when we meet ...... In heaven!

xxxxxxx
Nikki

Reply to Nikki
Posted by: Tammy | 2007/03/19

Oh God, why do you send us these idiots ...

What about those who aren't Christian, Jimmy? Those to whom the BIble means nothing?

What about the whole passage, Jimmy? You never fornicated, I suppose? And what about Jimmy Swaggert? He certaionly fornicated. He's also off to hell, is he?

Ever looked at a woman with lust, Jimmy? According to Christ, you should pluck out your eye; and you have already committed adultry.

Know what the punishment is for adultry? Death by stoning.

Are you going to provide the stones, or must we bring our own?

Here's a damn good article about people like you :

Homosexuality & Religion
Written by Mark Schannon
Published October 28, 2005

You young whippersnappers reading this won't remember Frank Zappa & The Mothers of Invention, one of the great absurdist rock bands of the 60s, but there's a great line in one of the songs: "I'm not black, but there's a whole lots of times I'm not proud to be white either."

Well, I'm not gay, but there's a whole lots of times I'm embarrassed to be associated with heteros.

There was this fellow in Houston who'd been attending a Methodist Church in South Hill, VA for several months. He sang in the choir. He was a well-known local businessman. Then he made a really silly request of Rev. Edward Johnson, the church's pastor. He asked to become a formal member of the church.

The good reverend said no. Didn't want no queers in his church--at least as a member. Go ahead and sing in the choir--everyone knows that gays got great voices. But, shudder, if you become a member, maybe you'll start practicing your secret deviant homosexual rites and turn all our young people into...gasp...faggots and faggettes.

To be fair, the issue has split the entire Methodist church & the reverend yesterday was put on unpaid lead after giving his supervisors the finger for telling him to admit the unnamed gay fellow. (Not literally the finger of course; he just said no, following in the footsteps of Nancy Reagan but forgetting that she was talking about drugs.)

Seems the Methodist Church is a little like the military. You can join, but you can't be ordained. That'd be terrible, even though "gay men and lesbians are 'persons of sacred worth'..." Let's see, not worth as much as a hetero, which means we heteros are more than sacred. Why, we must be Godly!

"Church member Gary W. Creamer told the Mecklenburg Sun newspaper that Johnson 'was holding to Biblical principle and that 'a terrible injustice' was done to the pastor."

Excuse me? Injustice done to the pastor? Let's bring Jesus down and ask him what he'd do....Seems he won't answer, but I'll tell you what he'd do. He'd toss the Rev. Johnson out on his ass the way he tossed the money lenders out of the temple. Well, at least I hope he would.

I haven't read the Bible in years--don't even own one. But I sure hope the Bible doesn't preach against homosexuality. If it does, I'll stop pretending to be a tolerant agnostic and call down the wrath of God on all religion. (Hmm...can an agnostic do that? Oh what the hell, I'll try.)

I looked up the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus said, "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven." And "Judge not, that you be not judged."

I don't understand it. I never will. Wasn't Pastor Johnson persecuting the gay guy? Wasn't he judging him? Does that mean old Pastor J ain't gonna see the kingdom of heaven but will be judged himself?

What the hell are people so afraid of. Science has virtually proved that homosexuality is no more a matter of choice than eye color or whether you go bald. It's genetically determined. It's not evil, it's not demonic possession, it's not a decision based on wanting to be a good dancer.

"Hmm, lemme see. I really want to look good at parties, and, frankly, most guys dance like psychotics getting electro-shock therapy. Think I'll become a homo so I can really dance. That'll get the chicks."

Homophobes of the World: Repent. I swear that if there's a God, you'll burn in hell for so long that eternity will seem like a couple of minutes. You wreak of evil, you make a mockery of everything Jesus tried to teach. (He was great whether or not he was the son of God.)

And why do I keep capitalizing God if I'm an agnostic. Oh yeah, respect for those who believe--even those who believe that only heterosexuals are deserving of a place in God's house.

What assholes these mortals be.

P.S. While I was looking for a book on Amazon, I came across the one somewhere on this post. Here's a review from Library Journal. Helminiak, a Roman Catholic priest, has done careful reading in current biblical scholarship about homosexuality. While cautioning against viewing biblical teaching as "the last word on sexual ethics," he stresses the need for accurate understanding of what the biblical "facts" are and concludes that "the Bible supplies no real basis for the condemnation of homosexuality."

Using the studies of Yale historian John Boswell (Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe, LJ 7/94), New Testament seminary professor L. William Countryman, and others, Helminiak examines the story of Sodom (where the sin was inhospitality), Jude's decrying sex with angels, and five texts-Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, Romans 1:27, I Corinthians 6:9, and I Timothy 1:10-all of which, he concludes, "are concerned with something other than homogenital activity itself."

Reply to Tammy
Posted by: Paul | 2007/03/19

Well Jimmy - what makes you think you are going to get through the pearly gates and that you are normal.
Ttake a good look at yourself honey !!!

Reply to Paul

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